Opinions please on a '94 VT | LamborghiniChat
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Opinions please on a '94 VT

Discussion in 'Lamborghini Discussion (not model specific)' started by Joe G., Oct 25, 2004.

  1. Joe G.

    Joe G. Karting
    BANNED

    Dec 9, 2003
    138
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Joe Gazzani
    basically i have one question
    your help and opinions will be very very much appreciated

    -1994VT
    -assuming a 10k mile car
    -documented clutch within the last 4 months and 1000 miles
    -prestine paint, engine bay, and interior
    -black on black
    -nice sound system
    -all tools, books, keys
    -3 owner car
    -good tires
    -recent fluids change

    what should i pay for this car ?

    opinions greatly appreciated to all lambo experts
     
  2. bentasm1

    bentasm1 Formula Junior

    Jun 7, 2004
    415
    Hi Joe,

    Your one question should be a bunch of questions. :) There's a lot I'd like to know about a 1994 Diablo if I was the purchaser. The sound system and manuals are cute, but there's the 'big picture' which can really kill a Diablos value quick.

    - Carfax -- If not clean, dump the car and move on. Make sure it wasnt a leased or rental vehicle before and check for odometer fraud.

    - Maintenance history. If it doesn't have it, subtract $15,000 from the average going price. You'll use that to fix stuff later. If the current owner doesn't have the history but claims it was done at a lambo dealer -- GREAT! Give that dealer the VIN # and they can give you a history report from the beginning of time forward.

    - Mileage -- I *really* like the fact that it has 10,000 miles (not Km). That means on average 1000 miles per year which is enough to keep a car in operating condition and not rotting or corroding. However, with that Carfax report, look for "pauses" in the mileage. i.e., in 1994 if it said 9000 miles and then in 2003 it said 9403 miles, that's very very bad news.

    - USA vs Euro spec car -- As stupid as it sounds, this will also hinder resale of a Lamborghini. US cars are what most US buyers want. I had trouble selling my Yellow 6.0 to a guy because it was from Toronto Canada, and although it had ZERO differences in ANYTHING on the car other than one letter different in the VIN, he passed it up. While I think his decision was completely retarded, that's the buyer you have to deal with.

    - Clutch replacement is good that it was so recent, but this does mean that the previous driver didn't drive a stick well. That usually means a lot of launching or just bad shifting. You'll want to have the entire car inspected, but especially the 4wd system which is what can be hurt the most on any VT.

    - Where the car has been its entire life. Heated garage? A/C Garage? NYC Street parking? :) I like cars that have been above 60(F) for most their life. Most Northerners dont have heated garages, and a frozen Diablo that sat for 7 months of winter is no fun either. :)

    Last but not least, a fair price is about $125-$135kk I'd imagine. There aren't many Diablos for sale, so you may call a few dealers for comparables. In the end, with so few Diablos, people like you and I set the price for them by what we are willing to pay. Keep in mind that the car IS 10 years old. Hard to remember, but 10 years old is an old car. That's why everything above is extremely important.

    Hope this helps.

    -Ben
     
  3. wings

    wings Formula Junior

    Dec 13, 2003
    315
    Good advise Ben:
     
  4. Jay

    Jay Karting
    Owner

    Nov 13, 2003
    93
    Charlotte
    Full Name:
    Jay
    That's all good info Ben. From my recent experiences the price range you mentioned is in line with the current asking prices. Actual selling prices I have seen are in the 105-110k range for a 94/95VT.
     
  5. Joe G.

    Joe G. Karting
    BANNED

    Dec 9, 2003
    138
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Joe Gazzani
    excellent excellent post Ben
    many thanks

    Jay,
    thanks for the feedback.
    i agree.
    the asking price on this particular example started at $134k, then quickly
    dropped to $129k
    now the seller is at $127.5k

    it's a nice car. I just need to know where I need to set my price.

    i also need to have it inspected as Ben has suggested
     
  6. MurcieMurcie

    MurcieMurcie Formula 3

    Jan 31, 2004
    1,279

    Sounds like the seller is very motivated, take full advantage of the situation...Yes you do need to have a full inspection done, preferable by an authorized dealer. I am very conservative on what I will spend on a used vehicle but if everything is up to date and in perfect shape I would offer $115k tops. The asking price does'nt stand for anything so don't base your offer off that:D
     
  7. wiz357

    wiz357 Karting

    Mar 30, 2004
    63
    Sun Diego
    Full Name:
    Raymond
    Very good advice. However, I think this retarded comment was directed at me. I think it would be retarded of me, in fact downright idiotic, if I don't take into consideration that your car is a "Canadian" car. Whether or not it's 100% the same as a US car, the VIN is important. As a current Lamborghini owner, I was able to speak to 5 different dealers from different States about your car. They are all in agreement that your car is worth less than a comparable US car. They also all agreed that the fair price is around $150k, not $165k like you were asking. One dealer even went as far as instructing me to offer you $135K. I did not even tell them about your learning experience with your car. Nevertheless, I thought $135k was absolutely out of line.

    Four months ago, you probably could've sold your car, Canadian or not, at your asking price. However, the market has soften a bit. You probably noticed this. You placed your car for auction on eBay twice. The highest legitimate bid you got was $150,100.01. You did not even disclose the fact that your car is a non-US car. I bet if you had disclosed this "insignificant" detail, you'd get less people interested, and therefore, get a lower bid. What I don't understand is if a dealer was offering you $163k for you car, why were you selling it to me for $162k? Now, I personally think that is more retarded.

    Again being a Diablo owner, I know what it takes to replace the clutch. I also know, that if there is a weak point in our cars, it is the clutch. Having said that, I'm a little wary with the clutch of your 6.0, as you learned to drive stick in it.. I don't know what kind of damage you put on your clutch/tranny while you were learning how to drive a manual tranny. I could just venture to guess, that it would at least need a clutch replacement much sooner than if you already knew how to drive your car. On my e-mail to you a week ago, I told you that I'm still interested in your car, but not at your asking price. But then who cares, you already sold your car to Johnny T. It's a nice car, but it's not a "no-stories" car.

    $125-135k is on the very high side. You could get a 98 SV for that price.

    Jay's pricing is more inline on how much they are going for right now.

    If you can move up to the later model cars, go for those. The later model cars (98-01) are more reliable the the older ones. Plus, you get higher hp, airbags, bigger brakes and ABS.


    Raymond
     
  8. GregTe

    GregTe Karting

    May 3, 2004
    215
    Maine
    I own a 94 VT and it's been a great car. I've had it a year and put about 3k miles on it with absolutely no problems. Pricing is entirely based on condition imo. Service records are good but are often falsified so can only be taken with a grain of salt. A predelivery inspection is always a good idea as is a carfax obviously. Feel free to e-mail me directly if you have any specific questions. Greg gte32@aol.com
     
  9. bentasm1

    bentasm1 Formula Junior

    Jun 7, 2004
    415
    The comment wasnt directed at you, but to anyone who doesn't buy a car based on it solely as being bought in Canada first. A 1994 Euro (inclusive of Canadian) car sure does hold less value as there are significant differences, mostly safety and emissions related. A 6.0 Canadian car and a 6.0 US car only have a taillight lens in a different color. They are actually considered North American cars, there is no "US" or "Canada" 6.0's, only North America and Euro ones. Perhaps you were misinformed of this being the case, but I explain that to each person who inquires about the car as well as all differences, problems, smells, history, etc..

    The car is sold, pending payment, and it was for a little below $170k.

    Any dealer will tell you a car they don't have in inventory is worth less than in real life. Dealers are in business to sell *their* cars and it is perfectly acceptable for them to do this. I won't tell a customer of mine to buy a competitors product either. Dealers are in business to buy cars and sell them. Why would they want to help you get a "deal" on a car that they don't make a dime off of? No respectable dealer would.

    Searching for a $150,000 Diablo 6.0 will take you many, many months. You can buy one in a less desirable color with higher mileage, that's about it. The hardest part isn't buying a 6.0, but finding one in the color selection and in the condition that you want it in. Buying a Diablo on eBay is super silly too, as everyone knows that Lamborghinis are on eBay as advertisements, and that few, in fact very very few, are ever actually sold on eBay as a result of bidding.

    I have disclosed the history of the vehicle to each and every buyer. If you think I misrepresented it in any way, you are mistaken. I don't mean you any insults or injury, nor any disrespect. My post was solely intended to state that if the *only* reason someone doesn't buy a car is because it was from 6 miles North of the USA imaginary border with no differences in the car whatsoever, that is retarded. I stick to my guns. It's true. You had other reasons such as your question of the clutch (which is perfect), and also not being a serious buyer in actually wanting the car, and perhaps not wanting to pay the price I wanted for the car. That's perfectly acceptable and your choice completely. Your decision wasn't based on one letter of the VIN # and for that you and your decision wasn't retarded. No insults intended, but a rebuttal was required.

    With the utmost respect,

    -Ben
     
  10. Joe G.

    Joe G. Karting
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    Dec 9, 2003
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    Los Angeles
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    Joe Gazzani
    all great info
    many thanks

    question though
    which letter of the V.I.N. identifies the car as a U.S. car ?

    very curious and it would be helpful

    thanks again
     
  11. GregTe

    GregTe Karting

    May 3, 2004
    215
    Maine
    Ben, I agree, there is no reason why euro cars should be worth less than US cars, but they are. The reason is when they where new and imported they did not have a warranty here and sold for less, and thus have always been worth less. A used car out of warranty shouldn't matter, but it does. I kinda like the idea of buying euro cars because you can get the same car for less money, as i suspect you did when you bought yours. It sounds like you found an uneducated buyer for yours, good for you ,i hope the deal goes through.
     
  12. wiz357

    wiz357 Karting

    Mar 30, 2004
    63
    Sun Diego
    Full Name:
    Raymond


    Yes, you are right. The cars are 99.9% the same. However, that fifth digit in the VIN is what differenciate the two cars. Sorry, but US designated cars are considered different from Canadian designated 6.0. If they are the same, the first five digit will be the same. As you have experience while posting your car for auction, eBay did not recognise your VIN as a valid number. Experian Autocheck also spits out the VIN as invalid. Some insurance company will probably reject the VIN as well. As I have explained to you in our private conversations, California laws on importing out of state, especially out of the county cars, are the toughest in all 50 states. I did not want to buy your car at your price for the fear of having to go through months of paperwork juggling just to get the car register in CA. I aslo told you that you will probably have better luck finding a buyer at your asking price in states that are less stringent with their emission and registration laws. Luckily for you, you found a buyer. It just boggles my mind that Johnny T would pay "a little below $170k" for your car, while he had a hardest time selling a 600-mile US yellow 6.0 for his asking price of $180k. From what I've have been told, he sold his yellow 6.0 for less than $180k.


    Since you are somewhat new to the Lambo world, let me tell you that we have a very small community. Almost all of the newer Lambos are accounted for. Dig a little deeper and you'll find out a whole lot of info. Dealers and other owners are always willing to help without any ulterior motives. The dealers I've mentioned were not even trying to sell me a car. I mean, really, how much did the dealers offer you for your car? One of the dealers you offered your car to was surprised to hear when I told them your car is Canadian. This is Lamborghini, not Hummers. These dealers do not think like the GM dealers. Most of them want to keep you for life. Definitely, there are some dealers who are a little shady conducting their business. However, I would say the majority of the less than 20 US dealers want to keep you as their customer for life. Give them a little credit. Alway remember, small community.

    I'm not looking for $150k 6.0. What I'm looking for is the right car, at the right price. Your deal would've been perfect if not for the Canadian classification. Ebay is a great tool to sell a car. Sure, Lamborghinis don't normally sell through the bidding process. However, I know of at least 2 that sold on eBay within the last month. Certainly its not a Diablo, but a Murci and a Gallardo. People are always looking for a deal on eBay. If you did not "shill bid" your first auction for your 6.0, you know it would've sold through the bidding process for a lot less you are hoping for.

    As I have told you over and over again, your car is a great car. There is no doubt about that. However, because of the stigma of it being Canadian, makes the pricing different from the US cars. If you remember, I was ready to fly to Tampa to buy your car. All of that changed when you gave me the VIN. As I was reading your VIN to one of the dealers I use, he stopped me at the fifth digit, and said, "No good, it's Canadian." I did not even finish reading off the VIN to him. I did not want to pay for your asking price as I know, I will have the same problem you had when it's time for me to sell the car. What is retarded are people buying these cars without due dilligence. I'm sorry but I have more brains than money.


    Joe G., The fifth digit of the US cars are "U". Canadian cars are "C". This single letter can cost you an extra 10% if you are not careful.

    Raymond
     
  13. Joe G.

    Joe G. Karting
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    Dec 9, 2003
    138
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Joe Gazzani
    Thanks for the fifth digit info.

    the car i've spotted has a "U" for a fifth digit
     
  14. bentasm1

    bentasm1 Formula Junior

    Jun 7, 2004
    415
    On Joe's 94 VT since it's a US car, it's good to go. I don't think I'd want a euro Diablo for any reason since it didnt' come equipped with the necessary safety and emissions features.

    On 6.0's, Murci, and Gallardos, the same thing. The difference Raymond is pointing out is that my Yellow 6.0 came from Canada. This is NOT a Euro car. The only difference is it was sold in Toronto and thus has a C instead of the U for the VIN #. A North America Car (which means any Diablo sold in US or Canada) is the same car. It does not have the differences a EURO car does.

    If the 6.0 was a EURO 6.0, then I agree wholeheartedly that the value is less due to the required conversions.

    Although I'm not sure, I think the '99SV's may also be the same as the North American 6.0's but I havent found anyone who can concretely confirm or deny it. I *think* that Canada started receiving North America (aka USA) cars when the USA importer for Lamborghinis contract expired -- I may be completely wrong here but this seems to be the consensus.

    Cheers,

    -Ben
     
  15. wiz357

    wiz357 Karting

    Mar 30, 2004
    63
    Sun Diego
    Full Name:
    Raymond
    Ben is correct. The Euro 6.0 are not the same as the NA cars. I don't think those Euro 6.0s are even allowed in the US, even with the special "show and display" exemption. If there are Euro Diablos in the US, it would be the models that we never got here, like the GTs and the GTRs. Those cars can get the "show and display" status as those were never officially imported here.
     
  16. bentasm1

    bentasm1 Formula Junior

    Jun 7, 2004
    415
    What exactly *is* a show and display title? I've heard numerous things from no driving and trailering a car to shows, to driving less than 1000 miles per year....?
     
  17. sk90077

    sk90077 Karting

    Jun 25, 2004
    156
    Its for cars that ar not street legal. You can drive them for 2500 miles a year. I think you have to take it out of the country after a couple of years too
     
  18. wiz357

    wiz357 Karting

    Mar 30, 2004
    63
    Sun Diego
    Full Name:
    Raymond

    Here's a clip of an article written by Richard John Pietschmann I read in Departures magazine four years ago. It pretty much answers your question.

    "To Show and Display

    August 13, 1999 was a red-letter day for American lovers and collectors of exotic European motorcars like the McLaren F1. That was the date they received an unexpected gift from an unusual source: The Department of Transportation's National Highway Traffic Safety Administration issued its new, relaxed rules for the importation of cars of "historical or technological significance" for "show or display," such as the F1, the Jaguar XJ220, BMW Z1, Porsche 959 and GT1, Mercedes-Benz CLK-GTR, and the Bugatti EB110. "It opens up the U.S. for more cars," comments Dick Fritz, whose Amerispec Corp., based in Danbury, Connecticut, specializes in legalizing such so-called gray-market cars. "We'll have less to do on each car, but more of them to do."

    Virtually all of the safety roadblocks to bringing in such rare cars were eliminated. Previously, every single automobile less than 25 years old had to satisfy current DOT safety rules before it could be certified to remain in the country. That meant costly and time-consuming additions and alterations such as air bags, seat belts, bumpers, door reinforcements, third brake lights, and reflectors, costing thousands of dollars and often taking months to complete. Such changes ruined the essential look of many cars, at least in the eyes of purist collectors, leading some of them to attempt alterations that would bring the car back as close to the European original as possible as soon as they took possession. Legal? Not really. And certainly not in the spirit of the DOT rules. However, while bringing a qualifying imported automobile up to speed on safety matters no longer involves such cost and trouble, it doesn't mean the bureaucratic tangle was entirely eliminated. Each car still must pass EPA muster for emissions, hardly a cakewalk when it comes to high-powered cars. And the NHTSA rules for qualifying such "show or display" cars are stringent—as well as, on occasion, elusive—the application process is demanding, and lastly, the penalties for noncompliance are stiff.

    First of all, NHTSA regulations make it virtually impossible for a car to qualify under the new rules if the manufacturer is still producing the same make and model, or has ever sold a car of the same make, model, and year in the U.S. And any car will find particularly tough sledding if more than 500 of the same make and model were produced. If a car survives these initial tests, the owner must still prove to the satisfaction of the NHTSA committee that his car is valuable in terms of technology or history. The NHTSA publication"How to Import A Motor Vehicle for Show or Display" (consult the Web site: www.nhtsa.dot.gov) specifies that the car must either have advanced technology "of an unusual nature, not commonly found in motor vehicles manufactured in the same time period" or a singular history. That latter qualifier is defined as "one of a kind," or "the first or last vehicle of a particular model," but it also includes a car proved to have been owned by a person of "historical significance." If the committee certifies the car, further rules apply. The car cannot be driven more than 2,500 miles per year if it is registered for use on public roads, and the owner must have an insurance policy stating this. The owner must also keep a log showing mileage and use, and must agree to DOT inspections of the odometer and log. The car cannot be sold, leased or transferred without NHTSA approval. And if the owner is found to have disregarded these rules, fines of up to $1,100 per violation and even seizure are specified. It takes time, too. The first letters of approval were finally being received more than six months after the new rules had been issued. Among the first certifications: a Jaguar XJ220 and a McLaren F1. "

    Raymond
     
  19. Joe G.

    Joe G. Karting
    BANNED

    Dec 9, 2003
    138
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Joe Gazzani
    BIG thanks to all for your help !

    i went ahead and purchased the '94VT

    it should be here in a couple weeks

    i can't wait

    much appreciated guys !
    couldn't have done it without your help

    btw i paid $127.5k for the car
    it's very nice

    i couldn't seem to find anyone selling a nice one down in the $110k range , except really high mileage rough interior missing tool kit and records type of car
    ya know what i mean
     
  20. bentasm1

    bentasm1 Formula Junior

    Jun 7, 2004
    415
    Congrats Joe! Before anyone else says it, let me take the liberty to say:

    "Welcome to the dark side!"

    When you get the car it is customary to start a new thread with pictures of the car so we can all ooh and aah and tell you congrats again and answer any questions that may have popped up since delivery. :)

    Cheers,

    -Ben
     

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