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Countach project

Discussion in 'Lamborghini Supercars' started by Chadbourn Bolles, Jan 28, 2019.

  1. Chadbourn Bolles

    Chadbourn Bolles Formula Junior

    Aug 5, 2005
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    Chadbourn Bolles
  2. EMILIO

    EMILIO F1 Veteran

    Feb 23, 2006
    5,045
    Italia
    5000s or qv?
    carbed or FI ?
    thank you Chad
     
  3. raymondQV

    raymondQV F1 Rookie

    Aug 22, 2007
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    I think 5l injected.
     
  4. Ellagirl

    Ellagirl Formula 3

    Aug 20, 2014
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    Nils johnsen
    No spacer on block ,lights on temp control panel, air inntake flanges in engine room, all indications on not qv.at least not fi.
     
  5. Chadbourn Bolles

    Chadbourn Bolles Formula Junior

    Aug 5, 2005
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    Chadbourn Bolles
    Not a QV it is a 5000S and all the parts are suppose to be there.
     
  6. joe sackey

    joe sackey Three Time F1 World Champ

    May 23, 2006
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    You can tell it's an LP500S from the instrument panel plate that holds the gauges
     
  7. raymondQV

    raymondQV F1 Rookie

    Aug 22, 2007
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    LP5000s FI, braided Oil lines to the front and double fuel filter, airbox housing holders behind the radiator fans like on the later QV (these were never on a carbed 5l car)

    Should be clear...
    [​IMG]
     
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  8. phrogs

    phrogs Karting

    Apr 13, 2004
    243
    MI sometimes wy
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    Johnny
    Guess he didn't want to part with it?
     
  9. johnhoughtaling

    johnhoughtaling Formula Junior
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    Nov 6, 2002
    840
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    John William H.
    Is this car for sale?
     
  10. Michael Call

    Michael Call Formula Junior

    Mar 6, 2008
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    Michael D. Call
    Yes. It still has not found a new victim.
     
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  11. EarlyCat

    EarlyCat Moderator
    Moderator Owner

    I'm going with sale proof, but out of curiosity what is the asking price?
     
  12. joe sackey

    joe sackey Three Time F1 World Champ

    May 23, 2006
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    We have sold 3 Countach projects (cars that were actually in pieces) in the last 2-3 years, and the bottom line is if the price is low enough, it will sell.
     
  13. Michael Call

    Michael Call Formula Junior

    Mar 6, 2008
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    Michael D. Call
    Like I said, It will eventually find a new victim. The cost to make a "nice" car out of it would exceed the value of a "nice" 2v injected car. Incidentally, this is a 2V injected car. I have personally seen it and know the whole story. If a "nice" 2V injected car was worth $550K+, this would be a feasible but not profitable proposition for what it costs.
     
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  14. Ellagirl

    Ellagirl Formula 3

    Aug 20, 2014
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    Nils johnsen
    how much could 6 side drafts and an inntake manifold ,poss cost?just saying,if you are doing a restoration, beeing this car started life as a carbed car, i doubt the pistons or any of the valve train was ever altered during the fi conversion,long story short,ditch the FI Porsche 928 style hack job,(30$ k) set back to carbs,and move on.
     
  15. MiuraP400

    MiuraP400 Formula Junior
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    Feb 3, 2008
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    Jim
    The cams are different. Last I looked cams were about $5,000 each or $20,000 total. But there are options to get them reworked for much less.

    Cheers Jim
     
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  16. EarlyCat

    EarlyCat Moderator
    Moderator Owner

    I would get new throttle body Weber replacements, maybe make the air boxes if I couldn't find them, and only source the original intakes.

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  17. Ellagirl

    Ellagirl Formula 3

    Aug 20, 2014
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    Nils johnsen
    wow beautiful part
     
  18. Michael Call

    Michael Call Formula Junior

    Mar 6, 2008
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    Michael D. Call
    This particular car did not start life as a carbed car. It is a very late 2V car that came from the factory as a USA model. It has had the "euro look" conversion, but it was born with USA bumpers as well.
     
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  19. johnhoughtaling

    johnhoughtaling Formula Junior
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    Nov 6, 2002
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    I often hear reference to the euro look when actually this was how they were designed and made for the entire world. There was no specific spec for Europe rather it was the same for everywhere in the world, (save the US which needed to be modified by the factory to get imported to the US) . In this period, bodies were completed as designed, and painted. When a car was destined to the US they coverted the body as designed, by drilling gaping holes in the car, to get over the 5mph bumper restruction and began conversion of the engine design for FI. I have an 86 Downdraft and a car sold to the US that are a few vin numbers apart, and you can clearly see how coverted the car at the factory, after the body was completed. This being even early than the one at our shop would also have had its body converted after it was painted. Similar mods were made to Mclaren F1s by Amerispec, albiet by a sub stateside and not at the factory. Thankfully those F1s, have alll been converted back, like many of the modifications of the US countach's for the DOT import laws are now being reversed back to the way they were originally designed and intended for the rest of the world. .
     
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  20. joe sackey

    joe sackey Three Time F1 World Champ

    May 23, 2006
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    A few objective comments if I may.

    When people refer to the 'Euro Look' they mean the European & Rest of The World (commonly referred to as Eu/ROW spec in the car community), in other words the clean non-USA DOT look, so 'Euro Look' is just another Countach moniker, short for the clean look of the European & Rest of the World or Eu/ROW cars.

    USA Countachs weren't modified or converted cars Eu/ROW cars, there were purpose-built on the assembly line as a specific variant of Countach known internally as Tipo USA Countach Inezione, and publicly as the US Version. As we know the USA Countach QV was materially different from scratch during the manufacturing process as regards chassis (with removable insert to allow the taller Fuelie engine to be installed), engine (a purpose-built fuel-injected emissions unit with different internal pistons, camshafts etc) and a DOT compliant body with a range of intrusive applications (front & rear chassis-attached bumpers, rear safety panels, dedicated engine cover, DOT side-markers on all 4 corners). The massive project by Nuova Automobili Lamborghini SpA involving design, testing and construction of the USA cars is well-documented, and the USA cars' specific model variance as produced by the factory is underscored by the dedicated owner's manuals (noting US Version as shown below) and the dedicated parts books cataloguing a difference of hundreds of components unique to the US variant.

    The McLaren situation is very different, as far as the McLaren factory at Woking are concerned, there is only one version of the F1, the Eu/ROW example, they have nothing to do with USA compliant cars, they were only interested in a Eu/ROW version, so any USA compliant F1s are a post-production privateer conversion in the USA. You'll also note that the F1's DOT body compliance was very minor and the removable bumpers were in most cases removed immediately, case in point Lewis Hamilton's Mclaren F1 #44 which he keeps here in California.

    That said, it is universally agreed that the conversion of at least the bodies of the Tipo USA cars to Eu/ROW specification is a good thing (as is the restoration of any Countach) applauded by everyone in the Countach community myself included because there is no question that's much more aesthetically pleasing. It also makes sense since the cars are all over 30 years so DOT mandates have essentially expired and are unnecessary.

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  21. joe sackey

    joe sackey Three Time F1 World Champ

    May 23, 2006
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    The CEO of Nuova Lamborghini and it's Chief Engineer separately told me the same thing about the design, testing & manufacture of the US version of the QV, and the latter kindly able to supplied me with substantive material on the subject.

    It's worth noting that the reason this variant was purpose-built on the assembly line is, Nuova Automobili Lamborghini SpA were compelled to carry out the Countach QV's DOT & EPA specification applications inside the Sant Agata factory on the assembly line upon a dedicated homologated variant to meet USA mandates.

    That said, we can consider the DOT era a bygone one for the simple reason that the mandate period has expired.

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  22. johnhoughtaling

    johnhoughtaling Formula Junior
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    Thanks Joe.

    I think its very much a matter of prespective.
    People can agree on the same objective facts and place completely different significance in them.

    I find the modifications the factories had to make to the Mclaren & Countach to be completely analogous
     

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  23. johnhoughtaling

    johnhoughtaling Formula Junior
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    #23 johnhoughtaling, Jul 26, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2020
    I think we all agree the DOT mods were terrible and both original models were modified in terrible ways to skirt the same stupid US law that is now expired.

    I find the similarities of the DOT mods compelling and the differences minor between the F1 and Countach DOT mods:

    1) Both cars models were designed, engineered and tested for a world market

    2) Neither car could pass the absurd DOT laws, the most absurd being the 5 mph bumper requirement,

    3) The factory and customers who desired a US import attempted solutions on how to circumvent the US laws by modifying the existing design of the cars,

    4) The engineering and modification of the cars for 5mph DOT laws, both utilized the same solution of attachments of large rubber bumpers and frame attachment for the front and rear,

    5) The solution for both were imnetely identical with an engineering solution of large rubber bumper systems placed on the bumper, front and rear. These large rubber bumpers were both attached to steal metal backing plates. Both had these backing plates which welded to metal extension tubes that extended through a hole cut into the bumper and extended and attached to front and rear of the chassis. This required the original bumper design to be modified by drilling large gaping holes into bumpers to allow the backing plate and tubes to pass through the original bumper.

    6) Both cars had the emissions and electronics modified from the existing design which resulted in less horsepower.

    7) Both cars had the lighting modified from original design.

    8) Neither DOT mods were originally designed when the models came out. The factory, the dealers and customers universally despised the modifications which ruined the look of the cars. Customers of both went to great lengths to avoid the US mods to cars. Some customers made non universal mods in period or attempted to revert or avoid reversion altogether.

    9) In both cases, collectors universally despised the DOT appendages in period and today. Cars with them removed and put back to the original design intention of the model are more respected and valued.

    Differences, (all of which I find meaningless)

    1) The Mclaren F1 model was modified by sub contractors of the factory, This Countach model received modifications at the factory.

    2) The F1 DOT mods were almost immediately reverted by owners after the cars were legally imported. Countachs with DOT appendages were not universally removed, but are beginning to be removed today.

    3) The lamborghini factory made a US handbook,

    For several reasons, I do not place much significance on whether the factory of a US sub performed the changes nor do I find it of much significance that one was done in Europe or one stateside.

    First, in both cases DOT mods were not part of the model's original engineering or design. The undesired modifications were simply a non elegant way to get by these stupid outdated import hurtles. (A stark difference is the the 25th which clearly was a whole new universal design.)

    Second, I dont place much difference in the Lambo factory mods because of how and when they were done. All cars were on the same assembly line built back to back. Anyone that looks at the countach, an early one, such as an 85 or 86, can tell the car was largely assembled prior to the factory hacking or cutting into the body and undercoating. The wiring job they did for the early electronic emmissions was less "engineered." rather it was a haphazardly and make it up as you go wiring job.

    Third, the only reason why theres a difference in one mod being done by the factory after complete assembly by a sub stateside, and the other being done on the factory line after body paint and assembly is one of economic scale and logistics. There were only 7 Macs going to the US legally. This isnt many so it didnt make economic sense to change an assembly line at the factory. By contrast Lambo was selling hundreds of them, this scale alone dictated how the product eventually got legally imported

    The reasons for why Macs were almost immediately reverted upon import, and Countachs had to do with value at the time, not because people found merit in the DOT mods. The Mac was a 1.2M-1.5M car upon import, now 12-20M. The cost of reversion was a tiny precentage. The cars have always been extremely valued and owed by the mega rich. The cost to change the car compared to value was small. As rare as a Countach is it was more of a mass produced and utilized car. The cost to revert was 40-50% of the price of the car itself. Now as values have risen and many are in need of restoration, most are being converted. Once Countachs are all million dollar cars, you will not see many DOT appendages. Even now cars with these bumpers take huge hits in the market that are as much as the cost of the conversion,

    As for the handbook, again I see this a function of lamborghini importing the car.

    Its interesting, Ive had experience with a Mac F1 imported in period and seen the kits and mods of the F1. There are incredible similarities to the Countach DOT revisions. If you put the bumper appendages side by side you can see the same engineering and terrible solutions. While the Countach emission solution was much earlier, and at the dawn of carb vs FI, it is interesting the solutions for the modifications to Mac required other things, such as entire head light changes and reversion of the car to a single seater.

    Of course in all cases the community is in ultimate agreement on this issue. The DOTs are bad and should be reverted.
     
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  24. joe sackey

    joe sackey Three Time F1 World Champ

    May 23, 2006
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    #25 joe sackey, Jul 27, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2020
    A couple of corrections.

    The Countach Fuelie was in fact designed and purpose-built for the USA market from scratch as intended and could easily pass the 5 mph bumper requirement, this isn't a subjective view.

    The McLaren F1 model was not modified by sub contractors of the factory as you put it, in fact, Dick Fritz of Amerispec Corp is an independent USA compliance agent for DOT & EPA mandates with no affiliation with McLaren UK, nor vice versa, Amerispec Federalized any make or model of non-USA car. Also, McLaren did not engage in, design, or plan to make a USA version of the McLaren F1, they manufactured only the Eu/ROW version delivered at Woking in the UK, and the private customer could take the car where they liked, unlike the Countach QV with which Lamborghini made a separate USA version and Eu/ROW version, there was only one McLaren F1version, the Eu/ROW version.

    All 7 McLaren F1s that came to the USA were sold as Eu/ROW cars and the McLaren factory where not involved in any way in the process of bringing them into compliance for importation into the USA, they were in fact private imports, sent by their private importer-owners to USA DOT & EPA compliance Agents (Amerispec, JK Technologies and G&K Auto) for modification to meet USA mandates.

    For example, the car you show is actually chassis # 044, new to Boston resident Herb C who took delivery at the McLaren factory in Woking in the UK in July of 1996. Shortly after taking delivery, he and two friends took the car on an extensive road trip through Europe, France, Germany, Netherlands and Belgium before returning to Woking. Here the car received it's first service. He then shipped chassis 044 to the United States after contacting Ameritech and requesting they Federalize the car for him, again, McLaren had absolutely nothing to do with that process. As a matter of record, Ameritech went to great lengths to ensure that during the process no part of the car was physically altered in any way that could not be put back to its 100% original form, there was no butchering or cutting of permanent holes anywhere. Those DOT mods stayed on the car for just a couple of days after it was photographed and gained compliance paperwork, and the car was delivered to Herb's NE USA home with all the items in 2 boxes, fully returned to it's original Eu/ROW guise, the way it left the McLaren factory.

    When many years later he came to sell the car it was lauded as an original Eu/ROW car https://www.autoevolution.com/news/one-owner-mclaren-f1-is-a-us-spec-blast-from-the-past-119442.html#agal_0 shortly thereafter, now 6 times World F1 Driving Champion Lewis Hamilton paid $15m for it as still has the car here in California in 100% original guise https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23977/lot/73/

    The McLaren F1 is an Apples to Oranges comparison with the Countach QV because the USA Countach Fuelie was a purpose-built serial USA DOT & EPA emissions vehicle, designed, tested and built by the Lamborghini factory themselves, therefore the cars are difficult to return to full Eu/ROW guise. Also, Lamborghini built 2 versions of the QV, the USA version, and the Eu/ROW version.
    On the other hand, the McLaren F1 was never a purpose-built serial USA emissions car, the 7 that came here privately were Federalized by a compliance agent in a way that can only be described as easily fully-reversible modifications simply to gain compliance paperwork. Also, McLaren built just one version of the F1, the Eu/ROW version.

    None of this takes anything away from getting rid of DOT bodywork appendages, that is universally appreciated, but it's important to recount what happend in history accurately. I say modify the Fuelies bodywork to Eu/ROW guise simply because they look much better, there doesn't need to be any other reason than that.
     

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